图片8: 请谢谢这些科学家 - 看他们的结论!

天行健君

缪晓辉就是研究cccDNA的，大家可以搜索他在2008年写了一个关于cccDNA总结性的文章，很多问题就清楚了

StephenW

天行健君 发表于 2011-4-3 16:43
缪晓辉就是研究cccDNA的，大家可以搜索他在2008年写了一个关于cccDNA总结性的文章，很多问题就清楚了 ...

好呀, 请帮助寻找缪晓辉的cccDNA总结性的文章.

天行健君

http://www.docin.com/p-70158596.html
缪的文章，大家可以参考

interdetect

回复 StephenW 的帖子

Hey, be fair! This is different to saying HbSAg quantity is an indicator of the quantity of cccDNA in the liver.
你又理解错了，没有人说HBsAg定量就等于对cccDNA定量，还是你对汉语理解有出入。

I will give you a reason why they do it. Since their drug cannot clear HbSAg (if it can, qualitatively, they have a cure already), they are hoping it may at least show a reduction in the quantity of HbSAg. This is called hedging your bets.
我请问你，如果HBsAg不能被清除的话，那么Telbivudine或者Clevudine治疗后降低的HBsAg是怎么回事？是自己消失的吗？又是nature发生的事情？我们要承认事实，不能只是hoping。
你说话有点武断啊，请看你说的话(if it can, qualitatively, they have a cure already)，在这里就是只有“有”和“无”的概念？没有中间的状态存在？

interdetect

回复 天行健君 的帖子

我觉得你没必要给他看中文的文章，他不能准确理解我们中国人的意思。

interdetect

回复 StephenW 的帖子

“Thank you, that is why scientists try to make discoveries and drug companies try to make money.

你说话前后矛盾，你说他们要尽量获得“as much data as possible”,你也承认“drug companies try to make money”，如果想多make money的话，他们就不会去测试那些没有理论支持的指标！
在满足基本需要的前提下，药厂就匆忙组织药品上市了，有几个制药公司真正的为了患者的利益舍得出钱去做一些基础研究？
如果他们真的舍得花钱花大量人力物力去全面探索一个药物的时候，还会有那么多的药物退市吗？
如果之前GSK做足研究，获得“as much data as possible”，提示我们在临床应用时多注意，还会有“拉米的横纹肌溶解吗”？
如果诺华做足了research, get as much data as possible还会在中国出现死亡的事情吗？

StephenW

天行健君 发表于 2011-4-3 16:55
http://www.docin.com/p-70158596.html
缪的文章，大家可以参考

谢谢, 我没有看到
HBsAg的数量和cccDNA之间的关系. 你看到?

interdetect

StephenW 发表于 2011-4-3 13:43
I have read the post about relationship between HbSag and cccDNA stated by a Chinese scientist in 1 ...

我接下来给你分析下你这段话：
I have read the post about relationship between HbSag and cccDNA stated by a Chinese scientist in 17/12/2008. To be fair to me, please read that article carefully. It mentions a relationship between "HbSAg clearance" and "cccDNA quantity". It states: "HbSAg clearance is a clear indicator that the level of cccDNA is dropping". But where does it mention  'HbSAg quantity" ? Nowhere, you know why, because when the Chinese scientist made that statement he had no easy means to measure quantity of HbSAg and that is why he used the term "HbSAg clearance".

既然你也认可我们中国人说的"HbSAg clearance is a clear indicator that the level of cccDNA is dropping".那么接下来对HBsAg进行定量监测不就是水到渠成的事情了？我测不到HBsAg了，那就代表治愈了啊？这点欧洲肝脏病学会也是认可的。
你今天无非带来了个英文单词“'HbSAg quantity”而已。

interdetect

回复 StephenW 的帖子
那你能告诉我们“老外”研究出了HBsAG和cccDNA之间有什么定量关系吗？
或者说成什么比例，或者多少比率？
不要告诉我成正比。

StephenW

interdetect 发表于 2011-4-3 17:06
回复 StephenW 的帖子

Hey, be fair! This is different to saying HbSAg quantity is an indicator of th ...

"我请问你，如果HBsAg不能被清除的话，那么Telbivudine或者Clevudine治疗后降低的HBsAg是怎么回事？"
It is accepted by most scientists that antivirals, such as Telbivudine or Clevudine or Entecavir or Tenofovir, cannot directly reduce the HbSAg quantity in the blood. What happens is this:
1. Antivirals reduce quantity of hbvdna;
2. somehow, this allows our immune system, for some patients, to kick in and start: a) killing infected livers cells with cccDNA; and/or b) secretes molecules into infected liver cells, disrupting or stopping cccDNA; - all these reduce production of HbSAg in the liver (hey, wish I can give you a precise answer, if I can I will be winning a Nobel Prize).