图片8: 请谢谢这些科学家 - 看他们的结论!

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我觉得你理解的有点问题啊，没人说cccDNA就不是DNA

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还有问题想请你，如果这个观点是“rather new”的话，诺华和韩国人当年都无法接触到你这个理论的时候，更何谈理解啊？
那么，在这个前提下？诺华和韩国人，大约在09年都开始测试这个HBsAg了（2010年发表的文献），请问，一个没有理论基础的东西，他们为什么要做？难不成他们是钱太多了？

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StephenW 发表于 2011-4-3 11:21
You are being too nice. I suspect he does not know anything about dna and proteins.
Ask him about  ...

中国人在2008年的时候就在宣传讨论这个观点：（请看我附件的图片），在北京地坛医院的网站上发表的。有句话是这样写的：
乙肝病毒表面抗原(HBsAg)的清除与cccDNA存在一定相关性,清除HBsAg是cccDNA水平显著降低的标志,而HBsAg清除一直以来都被作为乙肝抗病毒治疗的最终目标及“治愈”标志。

我希望你仔细看看，不要一贯的认为只有老外在做“科研”！
这个观点中国人都讨论了3年多了，你还说“rather new”!以此你推论出，我们中国人“ being pedantic”！
我中华民族情何以堪啊？

我在这里跟你争论为了想证明“中国人，可以的！”，不是你说的那种“ being pedantic”！中国起步是慢了点，但是中国人不闭塞，完全有接受新事物的能力！
我想，无论你是澳洲国籍也好，中国国籍也罢，到了哪里都不要否定了我们的国家！这里才是生我们养我们的地方！
希望你能理解，我对事不对人！
谢谢你！

StephenW

interdetect 发表于 2011-4-3 12:07
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ok，你的意思是你今天发出来是在国际上第一次露相？

No. The slides I posted were presented by the team of German scientist at Moscow on 24 November 2010. As I said before the idea is older, but the the hypothesis that "HbSag quantity is a surrogate marker for "transcriptional active" cccDNA " is new. Notice, I say it is a hypothesis, many scientists are working to make it a fact. See my other posts and note the dates:
1)The change of the quantitative HBsAg level during the natural course of
chronic hepatitis B

Yu J. Kim, Hyun C. Cho, Moon S. Choi, Joon H. Lee, Kwang C. Koh, Byung C.
Yoo, Seung W. PaikArticle first published online: 22 MAR 2011

2.Jnl of Hepatology
Volume 52, Issue 4, Pages 475-477 (April 2010)

Maurizia Rossana Brunetto
Liver Unit, University Hospital of Pisa, Italy

published online 01 February 2010.
Refers to article:
Hepatitis B surface antigen levels during the natural history of chronic
hepatitis B: A perspective on Asia , 17 February 2010
Tin Nguyen, Alexander J.V. Thompson, Scott Bowden, Catherine Croagh, Sally Bell, Paul V. Desmond, Miriam Levy, Stephen A. Locarnini
Journal of Hepatology
April 2010 (Vol. 52, Issue 4, Pages 508-513)

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StephenW 发表于 2011-4-3 12:47
No. The slides I posted were presented by the team of German scientist at Moscow on 24 November 20 ...

请看我楼上的帖子！
1.如果老外是24 November 2010年发表的这篇文章，然而我中国人2008年就在一个三甲医院的网站上发表过这种观点，请问“老外”的研究算不算“剽窃”我中国人的成果？
2. 退一步说，如果不是老外剽窃的话，是中国人跟老外学来的，就是中国人接受的。那么老外是不是在2008年之前就提出了这个观点？
谢谢你！

StephenW

interdetect 发表于 2011-4-3 12:20
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我觉得你理解的有点问题啊，没人说cccDNA就不是DNA

[njwk]"平时说的DNA，不是CCCDNA，DNA和所有抗原来自于CCCDNA，DNA并不能产生任何抗原,它和其他抗原共同组成病毒。"

This is what he said. I take it to mean "cccDNA就不是DNA". Right?

StephenW

interdetect 发表于 2011-4-3 12:27
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还有问题想请你，如果这个观点是“rather new”的话，诺华和韩国人当年都无法接触到 ...

Measuring HbSag quantity is very different to asserting that "HbSAg quantity is a surrogate marker for transcriptionally active cccDNA". Just tell where the Korean scientists make this statement?
See the paper I mentioned:
1)The change of the quantitative HBsAg level during the natural course of
chronic hepatitis B

Yu J. Kim, Hyun C. Cho, Moon S. Choi, Joon H. Lee, Kwang C. Koh, Byung C.
Yoo, Seung W. Paik. Article first published online: 22 MAR 2011

Why publish something you already knew?

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那人家吃了药以后还测试是为什么呢？也是“自然”变化吗？那应该是药物引起的HBsAg的变化吧？
这些文章我都读过，你发的这条是断章取义，这条的话谁都可以说。

StephenW

interdetect 发表于 2011-4-3 12:51
请看我楼上的帖子！
1.如果老外是24 November 2010年发表的这篇文章，然而我中国人2008年就在一个三甲医 ...

I have read the post about relationship between HbSag and cccDNA stated by a Chinese scientist in 17/12/2008. To be fair to me, please read that article carefully. It mentions a relationship between "HbSAg clearance" and "cccDNA quantity". It states: "HbSAg clearance is a clear indicator that the level of cccDNA is dropping". But where does it mention  'HbSAg quantity" ? Nowhere, you know why, because when the Chinese scientist made that statement he had no easy means to measure quantity of HbSAg and that is why he used the term "HbSAg clearance".

I am not saying Chinese scientists did not make the connection, they did, but so do many others. But they did not go on to prove it. That is the different.

Finally, I think it is rather insulting to suggest that I try to demean Chinese scientists and Chinese science. Europeans are no smarter than Chinese and vice-versa. Science has no national boundaries. When I first post articles published by Chinese scientists, one reader remarked that I tended to favour Chinese scientists. In some way this is true, because I want the readers to know that Chinese scientists are just as good as the non-Chinese scientists, and also I was sick of reading on the forum that China is doing nothing, and cannot do anything, for Hepatitis B.

I like a robust discussion, using facts, I don't take it personally.

StephenW

interdetect 发表于 2011-4-3 13:03
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那人家吃了药以后还测试是为什么呢？也是“自然”变化吗？那应该是药物引起的HBsAg ...

Please remember when they are doing clinical trials, they are testing the drug, they don't know whether it is working or not. That is why they try to measure as many things as possible, gather as much data as possible. It does not mean they know HbSag quantity is a DEFINITIVE marker, i.e., if HbSAg quantity rises, they should stop, or if it drops, the drug is working (but it is better than rising).