图片8: 请谢谢这些科学家 - 看他们的结论!

StephenW

interdetect 发表于 2011-4-3 17:12
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“Thank you, that is why scientists try to make discoveries and drug companies ...

"As much as possible" - the keyword is "possible"
1. For drug companies, "possible" means what they can afford, in short term;
2. For scientists, "possible" - means what they can do in their life time.

interdetect

StephenW 发表于 2011-4-3 17:33
"我请问你，如果HBsAg不能被清除的话，那么Telbivudine或者Clevudine治疗后降低的HBsAg是怎么回事？"
It  ...

1. 按照你说的，是我们自身的免疫系统清除了肝细胞，然后导致HBsAg的降低。
   那么，请问，contronl组完全可以说明你的这种想法，即所谓的“自然”发生的变化。
   然而事实是给药组比control组相比，仍然有0.5log的降低。这又怎么解释呢？
2. 你提到“secretes molecules into infected liver cells, disrupting or stopping cccDNA”
  既然能分泌这种分子，老外为何不把这种分子结构或者氨基酸序列揭示出来，我们去表达或者合成，然后我们开发个靶向制剂，直接对准cccDNA杀死它，这乙肝岂不是就攻克了。
  我想这些都是你们外国人的猜想罢了。并无实际价值。现在最有用的是什么？还是抗病毒药物。
3. 既然你不能完全说明HBsAg降低的原因，你又有什么证据说不是药物的作用呢？仅仅是老外的“认为”就可以了吗？这也太不靠谱了吧？你我都是做科研的人，证据，我只相信证据，你拿出数据来，我才相信。

StephenW

interdetect 发表于 2011-4-3 17:27
我接下来给你分析下你这段话：
I have read the post about relationship between HbSag and cccDNA stat ...

Hey, "clearance" and "quantity" are two different words and mean differently. You are stretching your "reasoning" a bit too far. There is a difference between "loosing money" and "no money" - it depends on how much money you have to start with and whether you are getting some more. Did you read the article by 缪晓辉 just posted?

interdetect

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"As much as possible" - the keyword is "possible"
1. For drug companies, "possible" means what they can afford, in short term;
2. For scientists, "possible" - means what they can do in their life time.

你的观点2我不反对
你的观点1就有点说不过去了，“what they can afford”在中文里面是“在他们财力允许的情况下，尽最大可能”，怎么可能啊？你太看得起那些“资本家”了！

StephenW

interdetect 发表于 2011-4-3 17:28
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那你能告诉我们“老外”研究出了HBsAG和cccDNA之间有什么定量关系吗？
或者说成什么 ...

As I say, the relationship is complicated and different during various stages. That is why it is still a hypothesis and they are still doing research on it. One thing they all agree - Interferon treatment is the only treatment that can directly reduces HbSAg quantity in the blood.

interdetect

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我也知道这是两个概念，但是在一定程度上他们是相通的。
HBsAG定量是干什么？是为了监测整个生命周期里的变化，说白了就是经过药物治疗降低了多少，降低的终极目标是什么？还不是清除？
所以一个是量变，一个是质变，但是都是针对的同一事物。
这就是马克思辨证唯物主义！

StephenW

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1. 按照你说的，是我们自身的免疫系统清除了肝细胞，然后导致HBsAg的降低。
   那么，请问，contronl组完全可以说明你的这种想法，即所谓的“自然”发生的变化。
   然而事实是给药组比control组相比，仍然有0.5log的降低。这又怎么解释呢？
"Control group" - what are they taking?
2. 你提到“secretes molecules into infected liver cells, disrupting or stopping cccDNA”
  既然能分泌这种分子，老外为何不把这种分子结构或者氨基酸序列揭示出来，我们去表达或者合成，然后我们开发个靶向制剂，直接对准cccDNA杀死它，这乙肝岂不是就攻克了。
  我想这些都是你们外国人的猜想罢了。并无实际价值。现在最有用的是什么？还是抗病毒药物。
As I say, scientists are working on it, if they know what the molecules are, they will try to manufacture it. I suspect IL-7 is one of those.
3. 既然你不能完全说明HBsAg降低的原因，你又有什么证据说不是药物的作用呢？仅仅是老外的“认为”就可以了吗？这也太不靠谱了吧？你我都是做科研的人，证据，我只相信证据，你拿出数据来，我才相信。
I have just given you two reasons why HbSAg quantity is reduced by anti-virals, what I cannot give you is the precise mechanism. Why the reduction is not "directly" caused by the drugs because people have been on antivirals for years and they still have non-zero quantity of HbSAg in their blood and also the reason why they say anti-viral is not a cure for HBV.

StephenW

interdetect 发表于 2011-4-3 17:50
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"As much as possible" - the keyword is "possible"

Ah...did you read "in short term". Capitalists are gamblers, using other people's money. Look at oil companies, they raise money to dig a well, they stop when they run out of money.

interdetect

一句话总结：
今天跟StephenW先生争论了半天，我相信我们都是出于切磋的本意，并无主观恶意。我把我发言总结如下：
1.国人对乙肝病毒表面抗原(HBsAg)的清除与cccDNA之间的相关性很早就有了认识（至少2008年）,清除HBsAg是cccDNA水平显著降低的标志,而HBsAg清除一直以来都被作为乙肝抗病毒治疗的最终目标及“治愈”标志。
2. 对于Stephenw先生提出的HBsAg定量测定，我本人也是很欢迎，观测整个治疗过程中HBsAg的变化是有意义的。
3. 在Telbivudine和Clevudine临床试验过程中都测试了这一指标，结果表明，与对照组相比有显著的降低。文献都有发表。
4. 现在国内有些科研院所可以进行此项测试。越来越多的药物研发机构，也逐渐把HBsAg的定量测定纳入了目标指标。

我相信，随着科学的发展，清除cccDNA不是梦！乙肝治愈不是梦！
再次感谢Stephenw先生。Have a good supper.

StephenW

interdetect 发表于 2011-4-3 17:53
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我也知道这是两个概念，但是在一定程度上他们是相通的。

You got me there - I did not know good old Karl was a scientist.