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发表于 2015-11-11 14:27 |只看该作者
关键还是在猩猩身上,这么久了

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发表于 2015-11-11 15:01 |只看该作者
那次发布的消息不是人身上么

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发表于 2015-11-11 23:48 |只看该作者
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你给的单纯网页上的这些背景信息,我其实一早就清楚的。

而我的问题是,如果NAPs仅仅只抑制SVP的分泌而不抑制Viral Pariticle分泌的话,如何能解释仅仅在治疗12周的时候,serum HBV DNA(以及RNA)就已经显著下降了,非常接近LLD;而这时HBsAg仍然是显著阳性的。很明显这是无法用"restoration of immune function"来解释的。

这其实也一直是我对Replicor的一大疑惑和不解。不知道你是怎么考虑的。

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发表于 2015-11-12 00:19 |只看该作者
本帖最后由 StephenW 于 2015-11-12 00:23 编辑

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This is what Replicor posted on clinical.gov website regarding their new clinical trial. It should answer all your questions. Please read carefully[the red highlight is by me]

"Nucleic acid polymers (NAPs) utilize the sequence independent properties of phosphorothioated oligonucleotides to target apolipoprotein interactions involved in the formation of HBV subviral particles (SVPs) which are comprised mainly of the hepatitis B surface antigen protein (HBsAg). The effect of NAPs is to block the formation of SVPs inside infected hepatocytes which prevents their secretion. As SVPs account for > 99.99% of HBsAg in the blood, NAPs are an effective approach for clearing HBsAg from the serum of HBV infected patient.

Previous clinical trials have demonstrated that treatment with the NAP REP 2139 (REP 2139-Ca) results in the rapid and effective clearance ofHBsAg from the blood. This HBsAg removal has the immediate effect of unmasking the underlying, pre-existing anti-HBsAg (anti-HBs) response, allowing clearance of HBV virus from the blood.

HBsAg has important immunosuppressive effects in HBV infection which have been shown to block both adaptive and innate immune processes. Removal of HBsAg from the blood of patients removes this immunosuppressive effect.

Thus, an important additional effect of removal of HBsAg from the blood is to greatly enhance the effect of immunotherapeutic agents like pegylated interferon alpha 2a and thymosin alpha 1. It is expected that elimination of serum HBsAg with REP 2139-Mg or REP 2165-Mg will lead to creation of a favourable immunological activation in the absence of HBsAg, appearance of free anti-HBs, clearance of HBV virions in the blood and synergistic immunostimulation with conventional dosing of pegylated interferon alpha-2a or thymosin alpha-1 and improved control of HBV infection in the presence of tenofovir disoproxil fumarate (TDF). All patients will receive 24 weeks of monotherapy with TDF prior to entry into experimental or active comparator arms."

TDF (reduces replication and hence release of new viral particles) + REP9AC (inhibits the formation of Sub Viral Particles and hence release of 99.99 % HBsAg, since HBsAg can only be released from infected liver cells in the forms of SVP or surface coat of viral particles) = removal of serum HBsAg = unmasking of HBsAb, freeing these HBsAb to bind to any serum viral particles, hence allow removing of all serum viral particles.

In this ideal situation of no immunosuppression by serum HBsAg and viral particles, immunostimulation with Interferon may allow revival of immune system sufficiently to permanently control the infection when treatment (TDF + REP9AC) is stopped.

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发表于 2015-11-12 00:57 |只看该作者
本帖最后由 HBVCURER 于 2015-11-12 01:04 编辑
StephenW 发表于 2015-11-12 00:19
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This is what Replicor posted on clinical.gov website regarding their new clini ...

很遗憾,这些并没有回答到我的问题。

我的疑问很明确:在治疗12周的时候,这时HBV DNA已经非常接近LLD了,而这时的HBsAg还没有被remove,其滴度仍然较高,因此,显然不能用标红部分所谓的pre-existing anti-HBsAg (anti-HBs) 以及任何“removes this immunosuppressive effect”来解释。

我不知道我说了两次,说清楚了没有。

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发表于 2015-11-12 01:00 |只看该作者
这里是原始数据
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发表于 2015-11-12 09:03 |只看该作者
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Oh, I see. You referred to the abstract presented at EASL 2015:

SERUM HBV-RNA LEVELS DECLINE SIGNIFICANTLY IN CHRONIC HEPATITIS B PATIENTS DOSED WITH THE NUCLEIC-ACID POLYMER REP2139-CA
Louis Jansen* 1, 2, Andrew Vaillant3, Femke Stelma1, 2, Neeltje A. Kootstra2, Michel Bazinet3, M. Al-Mahtab4, Hendrik W. Reesink1, 2
1Gastroenterology and Hepatology, 2Experimental Immunology, Academic Medical Centre, University of Amsterdam., Amsterdam, Netherlands, 3REPLICor Inc., Montreal, Canada, 4Bangabandhu Sheikh Mujib Medical University, Dhaka, Bangladesh

Corresponding author’s email: l.***@****

Background and Aims: Treatment of chronic hepatitis B (CHB) patients with the HBsAg release inhibitor REP2139-Ca may be a promising new option for achieving therapy-induced HBsAg loss (functional cure), however its effect on circulating hepatitis B pregenomic RNA (HBV-RNA) is not known. For this, we determined HBV-RNA levels during treatment with REP2139-Ca and compared these with HBV-DNA and HBsAg levels.
Methods: 12 Patients with HBeAg positive CHB (mean HBV-DNA 8.21 logC/mL) participating in a phase 2 study were dosed with the nucleic-acid based amphipathic polymer REP2139-Ca for 20-38 weeks. Responders to REP2139 (defined as decline in serum HBsAg) were subsequently treated with add-on peginterferon alpha-2a and/or thymosin alpha-1. HBsAg (Architect), HBV-DNA, and HBV-RNA levels were determined in baseline serum samples, after 20-24 weeks of REP2139-Ca monotherapy, and either during a treatment-free follow-up (for responders) or during entecavir treatment (for non-responders). HBV-RNA isolated from 140 µL of plasma was quantified by RT-qPCR using HBV-specific primers. Lower limit of quantification of RNA was set at 3.00 logC/mL. Variables were evaluated with a paired T-test.
Results: HBV-RNA was detectable in all 12 patients before treatment (mean 6.70 (SD 0.83) logC/mL), and was significantly associated with HBsAg (r2 0.33, p=0.049) and HBV-DNA (r2 0.74, p<0.001). After 20-24 weeks of REP2139-Ca treatment, mean HBV-RNA, HBV-DNA, and HBsAg levels declined significantly compared to baseline (-2.54, -3.34, and -3.12 logC or IU/mL, respectively, all p<0.001). At week 20-24, HBV-RNA was undetectable in 8/12 patients. In 7 of these 8 patients, HBV-RNA remained undetectable during the treatment-free follow-up period (mean 21.9 weeks, range 7-27). HBsAg loss and anti-HBs seroconversion was achieved in 4/8 patients during treatment-free follow-up (anti-HBs range 200-766 U/L).

=============================================
In 12 HbeAg POSITIVE patients, 20-24 week treatment with REP2139-CA, mean HBV-RNA, HBV-DNA, and HBsAg levels declined significantly compared to baseline. Replicor attributed the decline in HbsAg to REP2139-CA, but they OBSERVED also decline in HBVDNA and HBV-RNA. Replicor offered no explanation, and I of cause cannot offer an explanation.
If you believe it is due to the blocking of release of new viral particles by REP2139-CA, that is your business. If you don't believe REP92139-CA caused decline in HBsAg, that is your business. To me, the decline in both HBVDNA and HBsAg in HBeAg positive patients by REP2139-CA is a very encouraging result if can be repeated in a larger cohart of patients. An explanation of the mechanism that lead to decline in HBVDNA would be nice, but it can wait.

As to masking of HbsAb, it is well known that chronic HBV patients do produce HBsAb(pre-existing) but in far less quantity than HBsAg, hence they are "masked" and cannot be detected .
As to removal of "immunosuppressive" effect, it is believed that the immunosuppressive effect does not have to wait until HBsAg = 0 to be removed, but may start to wane after the decline of HBsAg to a certain threshold level, maybe 1,000 iu/ml.

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发表于 2015-11-12 11:33 |只看该作者
本帖最后由 HBVCURER 于 2015-11-12 11:35 编辑
StephenW 发表于 2015-11-12 09:03
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Oh, I see. You referred to the abstract presented at EASL 2015:

出现了这么明显和其基本机制并不相吻合的临床结果,Replicor并没有能给出任何解释。当然你也无法解释,你可以觉得这不重要;但对Replicor而言,面对质疑就不是像你来这么一句“that is your business”就能化解的了。事实上,业界的质疑从最早的这张poster中所展示的数据就开始了。而其中部分患者体内HBsAg,HBsAb和HBV DNA之间很难解释的相互动态变化关系,一直是质疑的焦点。而在replicor后续的所有数据展示中,干脆就直接省略了12周以内的HBV DNA(以及RNA)的检测结果。

As to removal of "immunosuppressive" effect, it is believed that the immunosuppressive effect does not have to wait until HBsAg = 0 to be removed, but may start to wane after the decline of HBsAg to a certain threshold level, maybe 1,000 iu/ml.


可以说,这明显是缺乏临床数据支持的。我同意无需等到HBsAg降为0,事实上也不可能降为0,但要到可以到开始removal of "immunosuppressive" effect的程度,replicor和ARC520的数据都并不支持你认为的1000的这个所谓额阈值,同样也和很多年来的干扰素治疗相关的临床观察不相吻合。更何况,我们这里讨论的是,HBsAb的产生及其对HBV DNA/HBsAg的影响,这种影响绝不可能从1000IU的水平开始。


Replicor一直使用masking这个词来形容HBsAg和HBsAb之间的相互关系,其实有一个更直接的词,neutralizing,中和。CHB患者体内可能存在微量的HBsAb,但会立即中和HBsAb形成抗原抗体复合物并被机体清除。当体内还存在高滴度HBsAg的时候,除非是突变的HBsAg或某些极为特殊的情况,否则不可能检测到游离状态的HBsAb的。此外,ARC的数据也清晰地提示,即使HBsAg下降到较低的水平,HBsAb也很可能并不会自发产生。这和replicor所谓的“masking”效应,只要HBsAg显著降了,即使不降到0,也会释放出pre-existing HBsAb的解释,是不相吻合的,同样和多年的临床实践不相吻合。


好了,我觉得和你关于replior的讨论确实可以告一段落了。说到底,选择相信什么,不相信什么,确实是个人的选择。
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发表于 2015-11-12 12:55 |只看该作者
大神水平的确是火星级!
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