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耐药机制与HbsAg和其他   [复制链接]

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发表于 2011-8-4 18:51 |只看该作者
回复 temp 的帖子

我见骆老博客上有病友在抗病毒的同时吃保肝的药,这样的结果是可以保证很长时间不耐药。我觉得很有道理。保肝降低了死亡的肝细胞的数量,同时减少了耐药的发生。
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发表于 2011-8-4 19:08 |只看该作者
本帖最后由 StephenW 于 2011-8-4 19:15 编辑
lifevendor 发表于 2011-8-4 18:51
回复 temp 的帖子

我见骆老博客上有病友在抗病毒的同时吃保肝的药,这样的结果是可以保证很长时间不耐药。 ...

"保肝降低了死亡的肝细胞的数量,同时减少了耐药的发生。" - 你有没有任何临床证据?
J Viral Hepat. 2005 Nov;12(6):559-67.
Silymarin treatment of viral hepatitis: a systematic review.Mayer KE, Myers RP, Lee SS.
SourceLiver Unit, Department of Medicine, University of Calgary, Calgary, Canada.

AbstractSilymarin from the milk thistle herb (Silybum marianum) is used by many patients with chronic viral hepatitis, but its efficacy remains unknown. We performed a systematic review of silymarin for the treatment of chronic viral hepatitis B and C. An exhaustive search strategy identified 148 papers that studied silymarin compounds in liver disease. Of these, four trials included patients with hepatitis C, one included hepatitis B patients, and two, unspecified chronic viral hepatitis. However, only one trial exclusively studied patients with hepatitis C, and none involved patients with only hepatitis B. Silymarin treatment resulted in a decrease in serum transaminases compared with baseline in four studies, and compared with placebo in only one study. There is no evidence that silymarin affects viral load or improves liver histology in hepatitis B or C. No studies were found that investigated the use of silymarin concomitantly with interferon, nucleoside analogues, or other conventional treatments for hepatitis B or C. In conclusion, silymarin compounds likely decrease serum transaminases in patients with chronic viral hepatitis, but do not appear to affect viral load or liver histology. Nevertheless it may be worthwhile to determine its effects in conjunction with standard antiviral treatment.


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发表于 2011-8-4 20:08 |只看该作者
回复 StephenW 的帖子

没有什么临床数据,是骆老博客上一位病友他常年吃护肝的同时将病毒,耐药没有出现。我觉得有这种可能性,降低肝脏细胞的更新,导致更少的肝细胞cccDNA空间给新的耐药物种。
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发表于 2011-8-4 20:38 |只看该作者
回复 lifevendor 的帖子

Let me show you this table from the paper and the discussions. It is very frustrating that no one seems to study this more thoroughly.

Table 2 Liver enzymes in patients with chronic liver disease including hepatitis C before and after treatment with silymarin or
placebo
Study ALT (U/L) AST (U/L) GGT (U/L) Bilirubin (lmol/L)
Buzzelli [63]
Silymarin baseline 145 ± 22 107 ± 21 64 ± 12 17.1 ± 3.4
After silymarin 120 ± 20 88 ± 18* 71 ± 13 15.4 ± 3.4
Placebo baseline 108 ± 13 79 ± 8 58 ± 13 17.1 ± 3.4
After placebo 122 ± 20 80 ± 14 57 ± 12 13.7 ± 1.7
Buzzelli [8]
Silymarin baseline 115.9 ± 12.9 88 ± 13.3 51.4 ± 9.3 13.0 ± 1.4
After silymarin 82.5 ± 10.6*, 69.5 ± 7.5*, 41.3 ± 4.2*, 9.1 ± 0.7*
Placebo baseline 97.9 ± 12.8 93.3 ± 13.5 64.9 ± 8.6 15.4 ± 1.9
After placebo 90.5 ± 11.1 90.5 ± 13.7 59.7 ± 7.6* 12.8 ± 2.2
Par [66]
Silymarin baseline 96.7 ± 23.3 128.5 ± 28 38.3 ± 11.5
After silymarin 49.8 ± 11* 66.1 ± 12.4* 23.8 ± 6.2*
Pares [53]
Silymarin baseline 50 ± 41 68 ± 47 168 ± 153 39.3 ± 34.2
After silymarin 50 ± 37 58 ± 37 137 ± 150 34.2 ± 44.5
Placebo baseline 52 ± 45 71 ± 53 183 ± 203 44.5 ± 39.3
After placebo 41 ± 34 50 ± 34 99 ± 106 44.5 ± 95.8
Vailati [65]
Silymarin 360 mg
daily baseline
101.8 ± 4.6 98.1 ± 6.3 138.4 ± 18.7 23.6 ± 1.5
After silymarin
360 mg daily
53.3 ± 6.1* 39.3 ± 5.0* 88.1 ± 7.6* 20.2 ± 1.4*

*Statistically significant difference compared with baseline.
Statistically significant difference compared with placebo.

DISCUSSION
Studies of the effects of silymarin in patients with hepatitis B
or C are limited by the small number of participants, the lack
of double-blinding or placebo controls, the grouping of
hepatitis of various aetiologies under one category (e.g. as
chronic, nonalcoholic hepatitis), the confounding effect of
alcohol, and the use of multiple interventions carried out at
once, with no possibility of distinguishing their respective
effects. The biochemical markers and other outcomes studied
were often not reported according to HCV status. The different
dosage regimens, treatment durations, and endpoints
used also make drawing meaningful comparisons between
studies difficult. Furthermore, it is not known how surrogate
outcomes, such as biochemical response, can be translated
into patient-relevant outcomes including progression to endstage
liver disease and mortality [7]. This warrants further
investigation.
Silymarin treatment resulted in a statistically significant
decrease in transaminases in four studies compared with
baseline and in one compared with placebo in patients with
chronic viral hepatitis. It is not clear whether a reduction
in transaminase levels (with or without normalization) has
any clinical significance. However, in some long-term,
uncontrolled follow-up studies it has been found that HCV
patients with sustained biochemical but not virological response
to interferon therapy had a significantly reduced
incidence of cirrhosis and hepatocellular carcinoma compared
with biochemical nonresponders [69,70], suggesting
that patients may benefit from therapies that do not eliminate
the virus. Thus a purely biochemical response may be
beneficial.
It is worth bearing in mind that ribavirin, when used
alone in patients with hepatitis C, has no effect on viraemia,
while it does decrease ALT. However, when ribavirin is used
in combination with interferon, the sustained virological
response rate is increased over that achieved with interferon
alone [71]. By analogy, if silymarin does indeed lower ALT
levels and help achieve a biochemical response, it may also
act synergistically with interferon to increase the rates of
sustained virological response, but this hypothesis has yet to
be clinically investigated.
A multi-centre study is underway in Germany, in which
840 mg/day silymarin is given to patients with chronic
hepatitis C resistant to interferon and ribavirin combination
therapy. The study is scheduled to last 2 years, and has
fibrosis progression as the primary endpoint. The authors did
not state if the study is randomized or placebo-controlled
[72]. The National Centre for Complementary and Alternative
Medicine (NCCAM) also lists two phase II trials that
are currently investigating silymarin treatment in hepatitis C
To date, no studies have examined the effect of combining
silymarin with interferon or ribavirin therapy in patients
with hepatitis C, and only a few studies have been conducted
on the effects of silymarin alone in hepatitis B or C. Until RCTs
of adequate size and duration are performed with a patient
population with serologically proven hepatitis B or C, excluding
other causes of liver disease such as alcohol, no definitive
conclusion can be drawn. Future studies should also
have clearly defined primary endpoints, utilize intention-totreat
analysis, and report reasons for withdrawal. Given the
prevalence of patients who take milk thistle as complementary
or alternative therapy, it would be important to determine
if there are any interactions or possible synergistic
effects with the standard treatment so both physicians and
patients can make more evidence-based treatment decisions.

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发表于 2011-8-4 21:05 |只看该作者
Another paper, this one is related to Essentiale, another widely used liver protection "drug" used in China.

Hepatogastroenterology. 1998 May-Jun;45(21):797-804.
Polyunsaturated phosphatidyl-choline and interferon alpha for treatment of chronic hepatitis B and C: a multi-center, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial. Leich Study Group.Niederau C, Strohmeyer G, Heintges T, Peter K, Göpfert E.
SourceDepartment of Medicine, Heinrich-Heine-University of Düsseldorf, Germany. [email protected]

AbstractBACKGROUND/AIMS: Polyunsaturated phospatidyl-choline (PPC) has been shown to reduce serum aminotransferases in experimental hepatitis. This multi-center, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial evaluated the effects of PPC in patients with chronic hepatitis B and C in combination with interferon alpha 2a or 2b. The diagnosis of chronic viral hepatitis was based on an abnormal serum alanine aminotransferase (ALT) value (more than twice the upper value of normal), viral replication and chronic hepatitis found on liver biopsy.
METHODOLOGY: Patients received 5 million I.U. (Hepatitis B) and 3 million I.U. (hepatitis C) interferon s.c. thrice weekly for 24 weeks, respectively, and were randomly assigned to additional oral medication with either 6 capsules of PPC (total daily dose: 1.8 g) or 6 capsules of placebo per day for 24 weeks. Biochemical response to therapy was defined as a reduction of ALT by more than 50% of pre-treatment values. The responders were treated for further 24 weeks after cessation of interferon therapy with either PPC or placebo.
RESULTS: 176 patients completed the study protocol (per-protocol population: 92 in the PPC and 84 in the placebo group). A biochemical response (> 50% ALT reduction) was seen in 71% of patients who were treated with PPC, but only in 56% of patients who received placebo (p < 0.05). PPC increased the response rate in particular in patients with hepatitis C: 71% of those patients responded in the PPC group versus 51% in the placebo group (p < 0.05). Prolonged PPC therapy given to responders beyond the cessation of interferon therapy tended to increase the rate of sustained responders at week 48 in patients with hepatitis C (41% versus 15% in the control group; p = 0.064). In contrast, PPC did not alter the biochemical response to interferon in patients with hepatitis B. PPC did not accelerate elimination of HBV-DNA, HBeAg and HCV-RNA.
CONCLUSIONS: In conclusion, PPC may be recommended in patients with chronic hepatitis C in combination with interferon and after termination of interferon in order to reduce the high relapse rate. PPC may not be recommended for patients with chronic hepatitis B. In contrast to IFN and other antiviral agents PPC does not carry major risks and is tolerated very well.

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发表于 2011-8-6 11:38 |只看该作者
回复 StephenW 的帖子

Thanks for your paper!

转氨酶的水平如果可以给出肝细胞的更新速率的话,转氨酶高,肝细胞死伤很多,同时肝细胞的分裂加快,转氨酶正常大部分肝细胞都是正常的。这就是为什么没有非常低的转氨酶,大部分正常人体内也有肝细胞的死亡和更新。为什么临床治疗中的指南要求转氨酶升高反,使用核苷更加有效,一部分原因认为是体内的免疫激活了同时对病毒进行斗争,但是大部分情况转氨酶升高并不能带来病毒下降多少,而且即使短期下降,后期转氨酶正常之后病毒数量又会上来。但是加上核苷之后,却可以很快将血清DNA下降下来,这里事实上肝细胞的死亡和更新提供了新的病毒复制空间。核苷类的药物控制了更多的病毒感染新生的肝细胞。



为什么我们看到很多人的DNA阴之后,干扰素治疗过程中的转氨酶却一直保持在80~90,他们往往最后可以得到金牌。干扰素维持了体内免疫清除的过程,病毒复制同时没有,防止了新的肝细胞被再次感染的可能性。这种情况是最好的。
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发表于 2011-8-6 11:55 |只看该作者
lifevendor 发表于 2011-8-6 11:38
回复 StephenW 的帖子

Thanks for your paper!

这样说来,如果有某种方法可以提高转氨酶,那么联合干扰素,Antiviruals,这种组合可能比单用任何一个,或者只是联用干扰素和Antiviruals达到更好的效果。

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发表于 2011-8-6 13:57 |只看该作者
回复 cshbv 的帖子

为什么转氨酶升高之后的核苷使用效果要更好,我们可以举一个例子,如果有100个肝细胞,每个肝细胞都被感染,而且可以生产HBV病毒,这个速率

是非常快的,100是基数,如果每个肝细胞内病毒不断的表达,如果有50个正常肝细胞,和50个被感染的肝细胞,他们产生的病毒数量远比100个同时

产生要少得多。如果不考虑复杂的免疫机制话,目前可以的最好的治疗方法:1.降低病毒的数量,核苷和干扰素都可以达到这个目的,自身免疫对感

染肝细胞的清除,减少病毒感染新的肝细胞的概率。2.提高肝细胞的更新速率,部分体现在转氨酶的升高,干扰素可以达到。
雄关慢道真如铁,而今迈步从头越
Battle Without Honor or Humanity
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发表于 2011-8-6 15:31 |只看该作者
lifevendor 发表于 2011-8-6 11:38
回复 StephenW 的帖子

Thanks for your paper!

Amazing, I agree with almost everything you said, except two things I would express differently.
1. One of the many functions of our liver is detoxification. Therefore in the process, some liver cells will die or be injured by toxins and thus release ALT. Just as you say, ALT is never zero. What is the normal level of ALT for a healthy person is a moot point, but scientists all agree UNL of 40 is definitely too high.
2. When our immune system is very active and tries to clear the virus, mainly by killing of infected liver cells by CTL, our ALT will go up. If high ALT is followed by a continued drop in hbvdna, then we have an immunological break through; eventually the drop in hbvdna will also be followed by a drop in ALT as most infected cells are killed and we on our way to complete clearance. However if hbvdna did not drop after ALT rose, then it just indicates that we have not achieved victory against the virus and our ALT and hbvdna levels will return to their baseline values. It is these constant battles, fought and lost, by our immune systems, that over a long period of time, leads to fibrosis.

Well these are my long held opinions.

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发表于 2011-8-6 15:38 |只看该作者
回复 StephenW 的帖子

I agree with you!
雄关慢道真如铁,而今迈步从头越
Battle Without Honor or Humanity
每天学习一点点,乙肝总可以被解决。
http://lifevendor.blog.163.com/
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