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标题: Einstein would not be happy. [打印本页]

作者: StephenW 时间: 2011-9-23 07:58 标题: Einstein would not be happy.

Particles found to break speed of light, challenging laws of physics September 23, 2011 - 6:49AM
[attach]239726[/attach]

Finding could overturn laws of physics
Scientists confident measurements correct

         An international team of scientists says it has recorded sub-atomic particles travelling faster than light - a finding that could overturn one of Albert Einstein's long-accepted fundamental laws of the universe.
         Antonio Ereditato, spokesman for the researchers, said that measurements taken over three years showed neutrinos pumped from CERN near Geneva to Gran Sasso in Italy had arrived 60 nanoseconds quicker than light would have done.
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         "We have high confidence in our results. We have checked and rechecked for anything that could have distorted our measurements but we found nothing," he said. "We now want colleagues to check them independently."
         If confirmed, the discovery would undermine Einstein's 1905 theory of special relativity, which says that the speed of light is a "cosmic constant" and that nothing in the universe can travel faster.
         That assertion, which has withstood over a century of testing, is one of the key elements of the so-called Standard Model of physics, which attempts to describe the way the universe and everything in it works.
         The totally unexpected finding emerged from research by a physicists working on an experiment dubbed OPERA run jointly by the CERN particle research centre near Geneva and the Gran Sasso Laboratory in central Italy.
         A total of 15,000 beams of neutrinos - tiny particles that pervade the cosmos - were fired over a period of 3 years from CERN towards Gran Sasso 730 kilometres away, where they were picked up by giant detectors.
         Light would have covered the distance in around 2.4 thousandths of a second, but the neutrinos took 60 nanoseconds - or 60 billionths of a second - less than light beams would have taken.
         "It is a tiny difference," said Ereditato, who also works at Berne University in Switzerland, "but conceptually it is incredibly important. The finding is so startling that, for the moment, everybody should be very prudent."
         Ereditato declined to speculate on what it might mean if other physicists, who will be officially informed of the discovery at a meeting in CERN on Friday, found that OPERA's measurements were correct.
         "I just don't want to think of the implications," he said. "We are scientists and work with what we know."
         Much science-fiction literature is based on the idea that, if the light-speed barrier can be overcome, time travel might theoretically become possible.
         The existence of the neutrino, an elementary sub-atomic particle with a tiny amount of mass created in radioactive decay or in nuclear reactions such as those in the Sun, was first confirmed in 1934, but it still mystifies researchers.
         It can pass through most matter undetected, even over long distances, and without being affected. Millions pass through the human body every day, scientists say.
         To reach Gran Sasso, the neutrinos pushed out from a special installation at CERN - also home to the Large Hadron Collider probing the origins of the universe - have to pass through water, air and rock.
         The underground Italian laboratory, some 120 kilometres  to the south of Rome, is the largest of its type in the world for particle physics and cosmic research.
         Around 750 scientists from 22 different countries work there, attracted by the possibility of staging experiments in its three massive halls, protected from cosmic rays by some 1400 metres of rock overhead.
         Reuters

作者: hbv30year 时间: 2011-9-23 10:07

looks like it is much faster than light. So we can use it to make long distance communication. such Mars exploration in the future. I forget physics now, before I was very good on it.

作者: StephenW 时间: 2011-9-23 10:22

hbv30year 发表于 2011-9-23 10:07
looks like it is much faster than light. So we can use it to make long distance communication. such ...

If particles can travel faster than light, we have to re-learn a lot of physics - which may not be a bad idea.

作者: admin 时间: 2011-9-23 14:46

http://news.ifeng.com/world/detail_2011_09/23/9426306_0.shtml
晚报记者杨美萍

爱因斯坦等科学家在100多年前曾提出，没有物质的速度可以超过光速。但是近日科学家的发现却表明，爱因斯坦可能错了。欧洲粒子物理研究所21日晚宣布，他们发现了比光速更快的次原子粒子。如果这一发现被验证是正确的，可能将推翻粒子物理标准模型的一大基石。

请日美科学家验证

爱因斯坦于1905年发表狭义相对论称，在真空环境中，宇宙中没有任何物质的运动速度可以超过光速。这已经成为人们理解宇宙和时间的理论依据，同时也是现代物理的理论基础之一。

但是欧洲粒子物理研究所的研究人员宣布，他们发现了一种中微子，其速度达到了299798454米/秒，而光速仅有299792458米/秒。

该研究小组发言人安东尼奥·艾莱迪塔诺说：“我们对这一结果感到非常吃惊，但是研究结果在得到其他人确认之前，都还称不上是新发现。当你得到这样的研究结果时，你总是会想确定你没有犯任何错误，希望没有什么你没想到的事情发生。我们花了几个月时间，反复检验数据和设备，都没有发现任何错误。我们对研究成果很有信心，但是一旦碰到这么基础性的东西，你都应该更加谨慎。 ”

据悉，艾莱迪塔诺所在的实验室为了检验μ中微子与τ中微子的转换，他们在三年的时间中总共进行了一万五千次中微子发射，而每一次的结果都指向同一事实：这些中微子就是要比光速快。

研究小组已经邀请了美国和日本的科学家对此予以验证，在验证结果出来之前，将不会正式宣布这一发现。他们表示，希望其他研究室可以仔细检验他们的研究成果，帮助他们发现任何实验缺陷，或者用他们自己的实验来验证这一结果。

据悉，日本的T2K研究组和美国芝加哥的MINOS研究室都已经受邀验证这一实验。其中MINOS实验室曾在2007年宣布发现了超光速中微子，但直至现在仍未公布验证结果。

可能是革命性发现

科学家表示，不管这一发现是否能得到证实，都不会影响我们的生活，但是如果属实，那么我们理解世界的方式将被迫改变。

牛津大学粒子物理专家苏比尔·萨尔卡说：“如果这一发现被证实是正确的，那将是一件很大很大的事件，这是没人能预料到的事。光速不变理论从本质上奠定了我们对于空间、时间和因果关系的理解。先有因后有果是物理世界的绝对基础，如果没有了因果关系，那么我们的世界会变得一团糟。 ”

如果超光速粒子真的存在，那么科学家就不能排除穿越时空的可能性，模糊过去与现在的界限，严重扰乱因果的基本规律。

在这一课题上研究了近25年的美国印第安纳州大学理论物理学家阿兰·考斯特里奇表示，一旦得到验证，这将是一次“革命性的发现”。

据悉，研究人员将在欧洲粒子物理研究所举行一次特殊的研讨会，并在会上宣布这一重大发现。

作者: ainbaby 时间: 2011-9-23 17:12

谢谢给翻译了，我也借光学学

作者: 我随心动 时间: 2011-9-23 17:41

As long as something new found to be faster, who cares if he would be happy or not.

作者: 风雨不动 时间: 2011-9-23 17:42

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

作者: loveelle 时间: 2011-9-23 18:00

there is no truth in the world ，only phenomenon！

作者: 把握当下 时间: 2011-9-23 21:17

These particles are so cool! I wonder if it can "see through" the black hole, probably not. But if it is, then ...

作者: StephenW 时间: 2011-9-24 08:00

回复 loveelle 的帖子

"there is no truth in the world ，only phenomenon！" Is this a truth or phenomenon?

作者: StephenW 时间: 2011-9-24 08:07

把握当下发表于 2011-9-23 21:17
These particles are so cool! I wonder if it can "see through" the black hole, probably not. But if i ...

Hey, if they are faster than the speed of light, they can do anything. They can most probably travel into the future and bring us back the next winning lotto numbers

作者: StephenW 时间: 2011-9-24 08:17

我随心动发表于 2011-9-23 17:41
As long as something new found to be faster, who cares if he would be happy or not.

My cat cares!

[attach]239904[/attach]

作者: StephenW 时间: 2011-9-24 08:22

风雨不动发表于 2011-9-23 17:42
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

I am betting they got it wrong - otherwise it will be a crowded Nobel Prize ceremony next year (obviously not a scientific argument).

作者: loveelle 时间: 2011-9-24 09:30

this is a self-contradiction

作者: 我随心动 时间: 2011-9-24 10:50

StephenW 发表于 2011-9-24 08:17
My cat cares!

your cat is a perfect match with Einstein, a Nobel cat

作者: 把握当下 时间: 2011-9-24 17:02

StephenW 发表于 2011-9-24 08:07
Hey, if they are faster than the speed of light, they can do anything. They can most probably trav ...

Yeah, I thought about the time too. You must hear of the Twin paradox?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_paradox
Although I'm not sure I fully understand that, I'm always wondering what would happen when the twin get together again after a faster-than-light travel, a man v.s. his "baby" brother?

I'm really curious, can the backwards-time work in the view of the physicist?

作者: StephenW 时间: 2011-9-24 17:19

本帖最后由 StephenW 于 2011-9-24 17:24 编辑

把握当下发表于 2011-9-24 17:02
Yeah, I thought about the time too. You must hear of the Twin paradox?http://en.wikipedia.org/wik ...

I am very rusty on my physics. It seems the older you get, the less you understand. If I remember correctly (others please correct me):
1. it is not a true paradox, because the twin on the rocket will feel the acceleration and deceleration, but not the twin remaining on earth;
2. using general relativity, physicists can calculate there is an age difference.

All this is explained much better in Wikipedia.

Of course, if one of the twins can travel faster than light - where do you start, special relativity would be useless?

作者: 把握当下 时间: 2011-9-24 17:26

StephenW 发表于 2011-9-24 17:19
I am very rusty on my physics. It seems the older you get, the less you understand. If I remember ...

Yeap, I agree all of that.

I'm more interested in the operability of the backwards-time.

作者: 把握当下 时间: 2011-9-24 17:29

I guess some physicists would get nuts when they try to take it seriously.

作者: StephenW 时间: 2011-9-24 18:26

把握当下发表于 2011-9-24 17:29
I guess some physicists would get nuts when they try to take it seriously.

Nuts, it certainly drives me nuts when I think about traveling backward in time, or time traveling through worm holes etc.

作者: StephenW 时间: 2011-9-27 18:56

本帖最后由 StephenW 于 2011-9-27 18:57 编辑

Particles that dared to defy Einstein put to the test                                              Glenda Kwek September 27, 2011 - 3:53PM
A US government agency is set to test the results of the discovery of particles travelling faster than the speed of light, announced last week, which shocked the physics world and led to dreams of time travel and extra dimensions.
The new tests could show Albert Einstein's 1905 theory of special relativity - that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light - may be sound after all.
Einstein, the father of modern physics, said the speed of light was a "cosmic constant" and nothing could go faster.

Data collected in the OPERA experiment by the CERN research institute in Switzerland showed invisible neutrino particles travelled faster than light.
         However, scientists from Fermilab, a US Department of Energy laboratory in Chicago, said they were re-analysing the results, a spokesman for the agency told smh.com.au today.
         Fermilab conducted a similar experiment - MINOS - in 2007, but its results allowed for a margin of error that made it unclear if neutrinos were indeed travelling faster than light.
         "We're updating the [MINOS] to measure more precisely the time that it takes the neutrinos to travel from Fermilab to the detector in Minnesota," spokesman Kurt Riesselmann said.
         "The experiment will also take new data in the upcoming year and analyse those, and hope to improve the position to confirm or refute the OPERA result," Dr Riesselmann said.
         Was Einstein wrong?
         Scientists across the world, and even at CERN - home of the Large Hadron Collider - have been sceptical about the OPERA finding.
         The OPERA measurements, if independently confirmed, would mean that, in theory, information could be sent into the past, making time travel possible.
         "Time travel seems to be the go-to topic when faster-than-light particles are mentioned, but don't hold out hope for a TARDIS just yet," physicist Dr Jonathan Carroll at the University of Adelaide wrote on The Conversation website, referring to a time-travelling machine featured in the British television drama Doctor Who.
         But he said it was more likely the OPERA finding was the result of a mistake in the calculations or experiment.
         "The much more likely scenario is that the analysis has overlooked some seemingly insignificant but critical aspect, and that re-analysis will led to a very good agreement with the speed of light.
         "Should that be the case, the follow-up press release will no doubt refer to the 'Phantom of the OPERA'."
         Another physicist likened the CERN discovery to flying carpets, saying: "This is ridiculous what they're putting out.
         "Until this is verified by another group, it's flying carpets," Professor Drew Baden at the University of Maryland told The Associated Press.

作者: 走遍四方 时间: 2011-9-28 10:09

299798454米/秒，而光速仅有299792458米/秒。

----------------就快这么一点点（20/million)，，，不知道有没有错误。。。当然，伟大的进步都是从一点点开始的俄。。

作者: hbv30year 时间: 2011-9-28 10:31

原来速度很接近, 应该是同一种性质的东西, 测量误差罢了.

作者: 走遍四方 时间: 2011-9-28 10:32

本帖最后由走遍四方于 2011-9-28 10:37 编辑

回复 StephenW 的帖子

估计你能看到且知道答案，但你无法告诉她，无法改变它，同样也可以看到过去的影像。也无法改变它。。

而且你看看到的多远的未来呢，

作者: StephenW 时间: 2011-9-28 11:05

hbv30year 发表于 2011-9-28 10:31
原来速度很接近, 应该是同一种性质的东西, 测量误差罢了.

Most likely, I think.

作者: 走遍四方 时间: 2011-9-28 11:11

回复 hbv30year 的帖子

也不定呀。。毕竟是超超超高速的东西。提高一点，发现一点都特特特艰难。。

作者: StephenW 时间: 2011-9-28 11:15

走遍四方发表于 2011-9-28 10:32
回复 StephenW 的帖子

估计你能看到且知道答案，但你无法告诉她，无法改变它，同样也可以看到过去的影像。 ...

I only want to see the next winning lottery numbers before they are drawn

. That is far enough in the future I want to see.

作者: StephenW 时间: 2011-9-29 15:08

Einstein bounces back: as doubt cast, another fundamental theory confirmed

Poor old Einstein has had a rough few days.
         It all began with an experiment last week that bizarrely found sub-atomic particles called neutrinos appear to move faster than the speed of light.
         The finding was a shock.


         The speed of light was enshrined in 1905 by Einstein as the Universe's speed limit. Today, physicists almost everywhere accept it as such. Could the great man have got it terribly wrong?
         But soon after this shadow fell across Einstein's reputation, another experiment came along which has validated - magnificently and on a cosmological scale - another of his landmark ideas.
         According to Einstein's general theory of relativity, light emitted from stars and galaxies is slightly tugged by gravity from celestial bodies.
         Danish astronomers have put the theory to the test in measuring light emitted by galactic "clusters".
         These are sectors of deep space which are packed with thousands of galaxies, held together by their own gravity. Their density and mass should thus have a perceptible gravitational effect on the light they emit.
         University of Copenhagen cosmologist Radek Wojtak and colleagues analysed light from around 8000 of these clusters.
         They were looking for variations in "redshift", a measurement of the shift in light. As the Universe expands, light from a star becomes slightly redder as its wavelength lengthens, indicating a widening distance between the star and Earth.
         Wojtak's team measured the wavelength of light from galaxies lying in the middle of the galactic clusters, where the densest gravitational pull prevailed, and those lying on the more sparsely-populated periphery.
         "We could measure small differences in the redshift of the galaxies and see that the light from galaxies in the middle of a cluster had to 'crawl' out through the gravitational field, while it was easier for the light from the outlying galaxies," said Wojtak.
         They then measured the galaxy cluster's total mass to get a fix on its gravitational potential.
         "The redshift of light is proportionately offset in relation to the gravitational influence from the galaxy cluster's gravity," said Wojtak.
         "In that way, our observations confirm the theory of relativity."
         The findings do not negate popular theories about dark matter and dark energy, the enigmatic phenomena that account for almost all over the matter in the Universe.
         Until now, Einstein's theory of the impact of gravity on light had only been tested from within the Solar System itself - essentially by measuring light from the Sun that was "redshifted" by the gravitational pull of Mercury.
         On September 22, physicists reported that neutrinos can travel faster than light, a finding that - if verified - would blast a hole in Einstein's theory of special relativity.
         In experiments conducted between the European Centre for Nuclear Research (CERN) in Switzerland and a laboratory in Italy, the particles were clocked at 300,006 kilometres per second, about six km/sec faster than the speed of light, the researchers said.
         The physicists themselves admitted they were quite flummoxed by the findings and other experts are skeptical, suggesting a problem in measurement techniques or equipment.
         Wojtak's research is released on Wednesday by Nature, the British scientific journal.
         AFP

作者: StephenW 时间: 2011-9-30 17:34

回复风雨不动的帖子

The Astronomer Royal, Lord Martin Rees used the same quote as you:
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

Astrophysicist and cosmologist Martin Rees of the University of Cambridge
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I think it will be perceived in retrospect as an embarrassment that this claim received so much publicity—the inevitable consequence of posting a preprint on the Web. Neutrinos were observed from SN 1987A more or less coincidentally with the explosion—not four years earlier, as would have been the case if the velocity difference had been the same as is now claimed (though, of course, the energies of the supernova neutrinos are much lower).

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